FranksMoans FranksMoans| - Last edited January 12, 2000 |
This is a good point since we're all peers at XtC we talk a lot about what stories we want, this is a problem in real life, you really need one maybe two users who have a firm grasp of a problem that needs solving. As we're all software engineers the kind of problems we have are on the bleeding edge and aren't always so well understood --OliBye
From the outside, it looks as if the people attending the XtC decide at random what to work on, especially in light of OliBye's suggestion of spending some time learning Smalltalk, and scheduling chats about conventions. Not, I hasten to add, that these are bad things, it's just that they are not DoingIt. This is precisely the sort of developer shilly-shallying that XP is supposed to help avoid. I know this is a spare time activity, but surely it should be as close to "reality" as possible.
OliBye is sorry it seam like that from the outside, I admit I'm finding it Hard to do XP all day for my Job then go down the pub and do it, then write it up late at night.
To me the whole "feel" of XP is the sense of real achievement, of powering forward at maximum speed, of actually finishing'' and ''delivering iterations of a software project which are really useful to a specific customer. It looks worryingly as if the (apparently unnammed) XtC project lacks the direction imposed by TheCustomer? and DoingThePlanningGame, and is in grave danger of never getting anywhere. This would be a huge disservice to both XP and the people who have put a lot of effort into XtC so far.
Is it really true that no one actually needs (or even wants) the software XtC is producing? I find that very hard to believe. If it's true, maybe XtC should work on something that at least one person would find seriously useful, and use that person as TheCustomer?.
Since the people that work at XtC are in full time employment with IP agreements, it very difficult to work on anything useful as who would own it?
Some outcomes of the XtC work (like FifteenMinuteTimeBoxes) are really fascinating, and I think there's still a lot to be discovered. But please, don't shy away from actually DoingIt.
[ I put this here so people would see it. It may deserve its own page. It's all IMHO, and no personal slights intended. Any comments? --FrankCarver ]
>I think you've got some good points here, but to be fair we have been writing UnitTests? and do Refactor. We have something of a ProjectMetaphor? (the 'wiki lens'). Our customer for the 'wiki lens' is effectively OliBye, but we haven't made the explicit decision that that is the case - it's just turned out that way. Perhaps we should make it explicit - I think it would improve DoingIt. [and for the next 'project', can you guess who'd like to be the 'user'? ;-)] However, at each XtC meeting we are somewhat 'democratic' about what we're going to be working on - it's for fun, learning and beer. IvanMoore.
I agree there are some good points in here, but at the end of the day all you're saying is that people who program down the pub at XtC seem to loose focus and get bored, well we only do 3 hours a week and we're drunk so go figure...PS I wouldn't mind you sniping at us all the time if you actually came along and did something :-P -- OliBye
I enjoyed my first XtC and as I don't do XP at work all day (that's why I came along!) I think I'll find the pair programming, Unit testing and refactoring practice useful. Having said that I think some exploration of the SystemMetaphor? would be useful as it could be a powerful tool to get new people (Me!) up to speed. -- TomAyerst
| - Last edited January 12, 2000 |